If David Eldridge believes most Americans think the war is winnable militarily he is the most naive person in this country. He is also an example of why conservatives stand to lose in 2008. Being in denial is a terrible strategy to win an election. Face the truth, design an honorable strategy, and win in'08'.

Murtha's utterance evinces the same of vagueness of mind that lead him to slander the now-acquitted Haditha Marines. If he ever apologizes for the slander, I will no longer argue ad hominem against him.

But just on the substance of his view, is there anyone who says that an Iraqi political solution is not required for overall success in Iraq? Is there anyone taken in by the Murtha's three-card Monte, to the effect that the surge didn't work because it only worked militarily and didn't result in overall success in Iraq? The serious commentators and politicians I read take matters from there and soberly consider, on the evidence, how to move forward. Is there anyone who counts Murtha's amongst the voices worth listening to on these matters?

Have several bi-partisan commisions not expressed the fact that in order to win in Iraq, we must win politically?
If there are any Republicans whom have never served in the military, but love to go to war, answer this question.
Thanks.
Patriotic American.

Murtha is disgraceful!!!

We give military briefings to active duty personnel separating from the military and it is at least 99% that said we are winning and the Iraqi people are glad we came. The progress of schools, hospitals, infrastructure and communities is commendable. The troops are our real Nobel Peace Prize Winners!!

Murtha's comments are irresponsible and myopic. He makes political hay while encouraging our enemies. He's myopic in that he can't see the big picture. We have been fortunate to avoid armed conflict on our soil primarily because we nip the problems in the bud before they can spread. Radical Islam is to our modern world what the Nazis were to the last century. Just as no Jew was safe from the Nazis no non-Muslim is safe from the extremists of Isalm. There's a reason why this Democratic Congress is experiencing the lowest approval rating in thirty years.

Representative Murtha is dead wrong on everything he has ever said about the Iraq war! He, more than most of the people in Congress has made it abundantly clear that the whole purpose of his calls for us to leave Iraq is so that we will LOSE the war and embarrass the Bush Administration.

I believe that our country has two (2) great enemies. The terrorists, that the "Dumbocrats" want to protect at the cost of everything that our country holds sacred, and the Democrat(Socialist) party of the United States. They are, now, referred to by me as "The Fifth Column of Islam."

Did you expect anything else from the Democrats.They will lose this war at any cost even to the point of helping the terrorists.Which is exactly what they intend to do.They will then try to place the blame on the republicans.

What better news for the Al Queda and their anti-American friends around the world to hear then one of our top National leaders declare to the world that "We can't win".

Even if he meant something different - that we need more emphasis upon diplomacy - the net effect is that he has done it again. He has given aid and comfort to the enemy.

Why doesn't one of his democratic colleagues try to teach Jack how to speak to the international media a little more responsibly?

Is that what Jack will say when they launch their next 911 attack?

Every time Murtha opens his piehole I feel like I need to scrape it off the bottom of my shoe. He is an insignificant waste of air and hopefully will some time soon be retired by the voters of his state but I wouldn't hold my breath. It is time to break out the Sedition Acts.

If Clinton or another democrat was the president these hypocrits known as democrats would be backing him and supporting the mission.

If we want to survive as a nation we need to term limit these pimps in congress prostituting our hard earned tax money to maintain their power.

Murtha is a despicable politician, representative of what's wrong with Washington. Go home Murtha and your ilk! You're ruining the country.

From the standpoint of geopolitics, the situation in Iraq is untenable. The quality of our troops in this mess is beyond reproach. They have been able to hid the depth of our foreign policy failure.
To goal of ridding the world of Saddam Hussein is accomplished,but in the worst possible way.
We have alienated our European allies. Iraq is a mess of dislocation, and homelessness. The countries surrounding Iraq are forced to absorb Iraq immigrants. Much of Europe is forced to take Iraq immigrants. In Iraq their is unprecedented malnutrition. The oil industry is in ruins. The government is infested with double agents, and unable to reach a basic political consensus. Since 2003, the U.N. can not even reside there. 485,000 TONS of high explosives are missing.
WE NEED A NEW APPROACH?

If we want to occupy Iraq for 40 years the way we and the Russians did in Germany before they reunited, then perhaps eventually the Iraqis will be capable of self-government in a unified country. But I can name 3 trillion reasons why this is not possible- the debt that the US government owes to T-bill investors. That doesn't count the money the government owes to itself- that's just an accounting trick to fool the gullible. How are we going to make payments on this debt and still pay for even a drastically reduced Social Security and Medicare? Let's face it, folks, we cannot afford to the be world's policeman anymore. Let's start with Israel. Everyone says they want to protect Israel, do they ever show any gratitude to us in return, like stopping their colonization of the West Bank? No. I support Ron Paul, Barack Obama or any other politician who has the guts to speak the truth and stop the bankrupting of America on unnecessary military expenditures. We need to go after the real terrorists who threaten us, who happen to be in Pakistan and Afghanistan, and not people who threaten the ungrateful Israelis. Let the Israelis defend themselves with their own money, if they can.

This country is in a graveyard spiral (pilot logo for impending fatal crash) because we are living far beyond our means, borrowing from abroad to sustain this standard of living, governed by an incompetant congress intent only upon getting reelected, and under a government promising everything to everybody.

It's not a matter of winning militarily. You can't win without the military. We still have troops in Kosovo. You can reduce forces to meet the objectives, but a withdrawal will cause a collapse of not just Iraq's democratic gains but U.S. global integrity. Democrats think it will be Bush's legacy, but with the sinking dollar, oil at almost $100 a barrel and the spread of global anti-Americanism, anyone in the world who wants to demean the U.S. will have the venue and it will expose irreparable diplomatic vulnerabilities to the next AMERICAN Presidents foreign policy regardless of which party wins.

I have read the above posts and have concluded
the dems are not very bright.They can only recite
and regurgitate democrat talking points. (sad)

I'd rather rely on Sen McCain's opinion than Mr Muttha's.

Why would we get out now when Iraq is getting better? Would Iraq be better off if we left now? The democrats are banking on failure in Iraq for their success in the States. US failures are Democrats gains. Is that the way to win American votes. Were is the Democratic plan for success in Iraq? Leaving will not solve our problems but only make them worst.

The howls and screams from the "stay the course, we can win in Iraq" crowd can be heard everywhere in America except where the rubber hits the road... the military recruiting offices. The support for the neocon's bully little war is so anemic that we're forced to raise the enlistment age to 42 and fill the ranks with foreigners and felons. So, all of you big, strong men... get up off that sofa and waddle on down to the recruiting center to get your war face. Don't be like Dick Cheney and claim you have "other priorities"... The neocons are depending on you to spearhead the next cakewalk.

I would imagine military and security gains are being made. That is a generally expected theorem in warfare and strategy analysis in most theaters where force is increased. As a Marine Corps Vet myself, I believe Gen. Zinney had it right. We had no business going into Iraq at the time. I will give Bush the benefit of the doubt that he acted genuinely, but He should have relied on better intelligence-some hard evidence of WMDs. Perhaps he should have shown the American people a Nuke captured from Iraq. Although I think Bush showed himself to be a very inept Commander In Chief, the Presidency is like everything else in life-you live and learn. Nothing is done perfectly in life. Moreover, who defines perfectly, we are only humans. Philosophically, even if Saddam was developing Nukes, who are we as Americans who proclaim liberty and self-determination to tell another Nation they can't develop weapons when we do? Do we have more of a right then they to self-governance? Many believe Bush's mentality boils down to we have a bigger stick so we direct what happens-Colonialism. There is some merit to this strategy if you believe America is the last great light to the world. On the other hand, perhaps we should spend more time ensuring we have better weapons then our enemies. Most commanders wanted an overwhelming force to start with. Thus we are essentially doing now what should have been done. There are problems with pulling out too fast; we jeopardize a people whose country we chose to destroy. Even though we may disagree with Bushs strategy-and I do-we are all Americans. We elected Bush. This should serve to show us as voters how important it is to understand what candidates believe. I remember Bush condemned Gore for being a nation builder and that is exactly what Bush has shown himself to be, unfortunately at the expense and welfare of the American people.
I agree with Murtha that the country will not become a functioning Republic by external military pressure. Additionally, I do not believe Iraq and other Muslim countries can be governed as Republics with a Christian emphasis. America started on Christian principles. This is paramount to America’s success. A monarchy or in some cases a dictatorship seems to be the only method of governing some people are able to live under. Muslims do not base their government on Christian principles of loving their neighbor of a different faith. I have heard it said that tyranny is better then anarchy. Saddam was a tyrant, but he kept the country from exploding with violence. Although I speak with limited knowledge, I fail to see how he was any more of a threat to his people then Kim Jong-il of N. Korea is to his but we are not invading N. Korea. A three state division may be the best solution for Iraq, but how do you enforce that. Perhaps two solutions exist-either plan our exit strategy or assume control of the country. After all, it is America that is at stake ultimately, not Iraq. It is better to admit we screwed up and go on then continue in the same direction to save face. If the terrorists want to come after us fine, let them do it. But we had better be prepared to annihilate them when they do, not treat them like a criminal and bring them before a court.

Representative Murtha comes to this conclusion based upon his vast experience in USMC logistics?

To Mr. Robertson's comment about '...bankrupting of America...' Democrat spending bankrupted this country starting with LBJ's 'Guns and Butter' programs.

I can't believe Mr. Murtha was a Marine, he sure wasn't in the same Marine Corps I was. God bless our troops, they are making us proud (oh yeah, and kicking butt and WINNING).

Vincent Pagnoni
Gunnery Sergeant
US Marine Corps (Retired)

Re: Murtha's comments.

It's all about undermining Bush and gaining political power. I would dare say that if a Democrat was in the White House he would be marching to a different drummer.

Murtha is not a statesmen and for the sake of the country he needs to be defeated at the next election.

The "war" in Iraq is totally winnable and the stability in Iraq is increasing every day. Murtha and the rest of the "Iraq will never be a win" refuse to acknowledge that country building takes time, it isn't something that can happen in just a few months. This process takes years and we're just in the middle of it. Look at the Balkan wars as an example. 10 years after the UN/NATO "invasion" the UN is still in control of "government building", are they not? We still have troops there, do we not? The threat of massive violence and war still exists, does it not?

For those who think that the "geopolitics" of the Middle East make it impossible for the Iraqis to create a stable, peaceful environment, who are you to judge them so harshly? Do you REALLY believe that the Iraqis, like all middle eastern people, are so violent in their culture that they can not, and will not, live in peaceful coexistence with each other? That attitude is what is driving the "US out of the Middle East" mindset and that is, to me anyways, one of the most bigoted attitudes I have ever seen. The people of the Middle East are not savages, they're not too stupid or too vicious to create and maintain a peaceful society. The have lived together in peace in the past, and they will live together in peace again in the future. The Iraqi people, and the rest of the middle east, can succeed with our help. Let's give them that help. Let's stop the terrorists from trying to gain control through fear and destruction and let's help rebuild a country shattered and segmented from 30 years of tyrannical rule or we will only prove that we are the true savages if we abandon these people just when they need us the most.

The U.S. military cannot be defeated in combat. Period. They can only be "defeated" when certain politicians, constituents who support those politicians and the majority of our media fight against them.

This 3 + year barrage of "friendly fire" is the only reason "we can't win militarily."

Murtha point blank and all his cohorts/associates who do not fully support the troops are and would be classified as tratiors if this were WWII!!! And they should be shot for treason.

Regardless of his personal opinion we have men/women at risk, and our WHOLE government should be working night and day to win the war and eventually bring them home. As far as strategy goes and the only policy we should consider is, Gen. McArthur said it best,"There is no substitue for victory".

Sad to say, there are those in our country that are more invested in the narrative of defeat than the analysis of what is occurring to see how we can hasten success. As a result, they look to defeat as partisan success....how sad. Salient points to consider from those who still want victory: 1. Political success is impossible if there is no security. The surge has bought increased security. Declaring the political scene a failure is, given the changed conditions and improved prospects, impatient and short-sided. 2. The phrases "new approach" and "strategic redeployment" are nonsense. The former means "admit defeat, run up the white flag and run" and the latter means "relocate to the U.S." I could go on but it is Thanksgiving eve and I can't spend too much time thinking about Murtha and his ilk without losing my appetite for dinner tomorrow. Happy Thanksgiving and let's give thanks for our young men who are doing their duty to protect us and our families...God bless them.

Murtha is just hoping some rich Arab will load him up with money again.

http://video1.washingtontimes.com/politics/2007/11/murtha_we_cant_win.html

(note: I posted some of the content below in another blog of the Washington Times)

Washington appears to be place where people want to reject the scientific/social/economic, etc. breakthroughs of the Renaissance/Age of Reason. Items such as honesty, truthfulness, integrity. I would suppose that they wish to return to the Feudal Dark Ages (on both sides of the isle).

If Mr. Murtha disavows the truth, he might as well be saying that the world is flat. I can understand that he opposes the present efforts in Iraq, so would Chamberlain, of Great Britain . Some people always want people in bondage, as long as they are despots. Mr. Murtha has stuck his head in the sand and dismissed the data/truth, showing his lack of integrity and intellect. (Credibility gap?)

Some people just can't get over the fact that world is spherical. However, to hold my son (and many other people's sons and daughter, fathers, mothers, husbands, wives, etc.) hostage in Iraq by not providing him the tools of survival, is the methodology of a terrorist. By holding up funding which I believe he voted for our involvement in Iraq, he has become knowingly or unwittingly become a terrorist to our soldiers.

These techniques are same game plan used on me and my fellow combatants in Viet Nam. These type of actions many times put my life in jeopardy. If he has said that he supports the troops, he is not only intellectually dishonest but a politically expedient extremist.

To say, "Look at all the people that have been displaced, all the [lost] oil production, unemployment, all those type of things," said Rep. John P. Murtha, chairman of House Appropriations defense subcommittee. "We can't win militarily" is absurd on the face of it and illogical in its content. People being displace is an unfortunate part of war, but I don't think he complained when Hussein was displacing thousands upon thousand into the earth. I don't remember him saying such things when we were involved in Bosnia and the displacement of people was probably greater. Did he say we should pull out of Kuwait because the oil production was cut by Saddam having the oil wells set on fire? Unemployment is a reason not to go to war???? If this is the rationale for deciding to go to war, we would have never engaged in WWII and we would have done what Japan believed that we do when they attacked Pearl Harbor, appease and relinquish Hawaii and the Pacific to their savagery.

We can't win if we are divided and truth is being ignored (equivalent to lying). But this is the rationale of the Shortsighted. If Mr. Murtha wishes to drag us back to the Dark Ages as I theorize, then these arguments are not relevant, because they contain truth. Lenin said that "A lie told often enough becomes the truth." so maybe Mr. Murtha is trying to drag us into totalitarianism?

Can it be concluded that Murtha is an appeasing, lying, totalitarian, terrorist? Maybe. He definitely lacks intellectual honesty, care for the our soldiers in harms way, compassion for the people of Iraq (we got our liberties(by the price of our predecessors blood) heck with them, ).

In another place in this paper, a Mr. McClellan's reportedly stated, "It's such a bitter environment in Washington right now that it's going to be tough for the president to get much accomplished beyond that," Mr. McClellan said. "There's so much bad blood in the water.""It's such a bitter environment in Washington right now that it's going to be tough for the president to get much accomplished beyond that," Mr. McClellan said. "There's so much bad blood in the water.""

It is sad that this blood is not the blood of patriots paying for freedoms through the cost of righteous blood. This blood does not set us free, for it is the blood of vindictiveness and Machiavellian politics. This blood destroys and imprisons. This blood will lead to the blood of innocents and our soldiers. Where is truth, integrity, and the righteous pursuit of freedom.

Mr. McClellan further stated"...it's going to be tough for the president to get much accomplished beyond that..." May God Almighty please help us. If our leaders hate each other so much they hate us, by not getting things done, what is to become of us? I have personally seen what will happen to our troops.

Yes, Washington has returned to Dark Ages. requisite with its psuedo truth, despots, psuedo scientist, pseudo humanitarians,... We not only lose in Iraq but we also lose at home, have we so soon forgotten the 1970;s to mid 1980s.

It seems that we all have. It is sad, and until we change Washington won't change. Washington is us. We send people to Washington that are part of our community and they represent us politically, but they also reflect us socially. morally, etc. We need to accept responsibility for these people. (we need to quit grousing and take action) If they are what we want these people to be what they are (and in few cases this may be true) leave them there, otherwise remove them. However, if we don't remove them, "woe is us".

Look for true leaders and put them forward. Use the ballot, write in your designated representative if you have to, please.

The surge was launched to give the Iraqi government a chance to move forward with its reconciliation efforts and to help it establish a stable national government. I have not seen much proof of that. Although the surge has produced some positive results by reducing casualties, I am not sure that is enough. If that was our only measure of success (reduced violence) we could have achieved that several years ago by pulling out. I'm not sure if too many have faith in the ability of the Iraqi government to actually govern, so are our efforts there pointless? Not sure. Just because the roaches all disappear when the lights come on, that does not mean that the roach problem is gone.

I seem to recall several GOP efforts to cut off funding for the mission in Somalia after the Black Hawk Down incident. They eventually settled for a 1 year deadline for pulling out.

Murtha is a coward and traitor who is exploiting the situation and putting our soldiers at risk. He should be tried for treason.The old fart should be voted out of congress by his electorate, and he should be tarred and feathered.

The Democrat Party has invested its future in the defeat of American Forces fighting in Iraq. It is sad that the liberals in this country place their hatred of President Bush above the country itself. They will say and do anything, no matter what the consequences to oppose him. They criticize him on every single issue regardless of where he stands. John Murtha seems to be (all jokes aside) senile. The Democrats are in real trouble because many have lost touch with reality. Even now there are those who are blinded by political hatred and pettiness, and it spite of increasing evidence that we have turned the corner in Iraq and that we will win in Iraq, will not see it nor acknowledge it. John Murtha, Harry Reed, and Nancy Pelosi would deny victory even if Al Qaeda conceded because they know that victory for America means defeat for the Democrat Party.

Sirs:

Doesn't Murtha read newspapers? It may have been
the most under reported victory since the invention of the telegraph, but, it's over.

Murtha and the rest of the Democrats are clearly rooting for our enemies. They are the enemy within and will do anything to see the United States lose. They have never seen a terrorist they wouldn't protect, a tax they wouldn't levy or a war they would fight.

The only one of them worth anything was Joe Lieberman and look what they tried to do to him.

This guy should be hung for treason, along with Levin, Durbin, Pelosi, Kennedy and Reid. Never in the history of our country have a group of people done more to damage the United States of America. Their crimes should not go unpunished.

The fact of the matter is that we are WINNING in Iraq. I don't care what Murtha's position in the Government is. He is a corrupt self serving shill, not much different than Chemical Ali, he should be investigated, convicted and imprisoned for the rest of his life.

What Congressman Murtha should say is that winning militarily is just the beginning. He's correct to the fact that just because the military is wiping the insurgents off the map, that this isn't fully winning the war. We do need a political solution; However, to have a political solution, you need a stable country. At least now we are halfway there. He is an ignorant washed up democrat. He doesn't see himself as an American. He sees himself as a democrat first, and an American second. More and more people on the democratic or liberal side are turning this way...Conservatives are the ones that talk about how they love their country...Not the democrats....Just a little observation from a independent.

The next time Murtha opens his mouth I think the king of Spain should be there to give him some advice!

If you trust or believe Murtha, you are lost! Murtha is only a mouth piece for those that he represents......his own political interests (Who pay him the most)! I know plenty of Democrats who are waking up to the reality on the ground....IRAQ is becoming a good story. Even the MSM is having to admit that, Only the hard left and hard headed and those who have invested everything in losing will have trouble admiting this. I can appreciate the trouble of their position, for 6 years they have worked hard to make the United States losers at every thing they have attempted, and now late the day all they have attemoted is unravelling, and will continue to do so right up to the NOV 08 election, for shame anyone who has hoped for or worked for our loss. We have stayed the course had a plan all along...and now like any plan that is pure, even with adjustments.....it is coming to be. So all you loseatallcostocrats can go away!

The Democrats should take a lesson from former speaker Gingrich. When "their" President Clinton attacked a nation which did us no harm (Serbia)
but helped the radical Muslims take a foothold in Europe(same results under Carter in Iran)Gingrich never attacked Clinton, never cut funds for that war but claimed that " Clinton is our President and we must not say anything against him that could undermine our troops". Will any Democrat ever reach Gingrich stature? No because they don't care!
The only thing they care is to hold power and let America be dammed!

Representative Murtha's argument is poor logic; it is true but worthless. No military ever achieved peace. By definition their role is to kill and destroy the enemies of the state, so as to prevent slaughter and destruction of friendlies. Our military is accomplishing this mission. No American civilian has been murdered, outside the war zone, since 9/11. Our real choice is to bug out, or continue the fight, and how? Each option has risks, in blood and treasure. We are attempting to get the Iraqi government, and military to take the load. It is their lives, which are on the line, if they fail. In defeat, we might die, they will die. In our elections, this is the choice. Are the Democrats willing to cut military spending, starve our units in the fight, force them to withdraw, and risk the lost of Iraq, and Afghanistan in the near future, close to election day? Once war is declared, it is hard to stop, short of victory. The Congressman has a hard argument: He wins if our nation is defeated.

John Murtha is an idiot!!, and as unamerican as one can be, even after having servied in the armed forces. He ought to shut up and take his goofy friend Obey with him. We are winning, and while I don't like every single thing about "W", he will be treated very well in history, unless these democrats are succesful in undermining him, our troops, and our entire country. It is treasoness behavior on their part, and they shouldn't be allowed to continue this leftest behavior without consequences.

Murtha is a FRAUD and Murtha is a TRAITOR !!

I hope Nurtha is the next victim of any Al Qaeda attack.

I despise Murtha more than I despise the Clintons.

It is a shame that a man who calls himself a former United States Marine has become such a spokesman for the Democratic Party. I am a retired military officer, and I have many Marine friends. I have never heard one of them talk in such a defeatist manner as Congressman Murtha. I can only imagine what type of Marine he was. It is obvious that the Marine Corps is better off that he has not been an active Marine for a long time. Too bad that no one has the courage to impeach him for "aiding and abetting" the enemies of the United States. It is a good thing that he was not alive during the American Civil War. He would undoubtedly have been one of those advocating that President Lincoln surrender. We have lost between 3,000 and 4,000 military personnel in the Iraqi War, and the loss of even one was too many (and that one was my son); however, there were battles in the American Civil War when tens of thousands were killed in one day. Yet, President Lincoln remained steadfast until victory was won. Thankfully, President Bush has the same steadfast spirit.

Murtha sounds more desperate as the weeks go by as Iraq stabilizes and powers up. His main quote can be taken apart one fact at a time:

"Look at all the people that have been displaced, all the [lost] oil production, unemployment, all those type of things," said Rep. John P. Murtha, chairman of Appropriations defense subcommittee. "We can't win militarily."

Displaced people: Yes, but they are starting to return as the surge takes hold. http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gkx-3oYeFwuWKCusr2jrojs98w8wD8SMC1HG0

Lost oil production: Iraqi oil production is almost back to pre-war level of 2.5m bpd. Large capital investments have also rebuilt and retrofit refineries and production facilities. Once the fighting finally stops for good, Iraqi oil production will soar. Compare that to Iran, who is losing international support and capital investments to upgrade their oil fields. Some estimates believe Iran will not be able to export much oil in by 2015.

Iraqi oil:
The Minister of Oil, Hussein al-Shahristani, reported November 18 (2007), �In the last couple of
months there has been very significant improvement in the security conditions in the
country, we have been producing more oil. As a matter of fact our production has
almost reached 2.5 million barrels per day, up from about 2 million a few months ago.�

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/95643.pdf

Iran oil:
http://www.robertamsterdam.com/2007/01/irans_oil_production_woes.htm

Unemployment: Remember, this is the middle east where unemployment usually runs at 2X the world unemployment rate. If we stay the course and help the Iraqi government stand up and runs its own affairs, I'm betting the unemployment rate in Iraq will take care of itself. A free and fair government does wonders for job creation.

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area=economic&ID=IA26506

All those other things: Huh??? Since Murtha is incapable of articulating what he means by "other things", I will throw in a few of my own ideas:

1) Iraq continues to draw in would-be terroist from all over the world, where they are being ground up and killed off by CF, IA, and Iraqis.

2) CF in Iraq has helped to break up the Middle East block of dictators and facist governments. Iraq has a growing independent media that may prove troublesome to their neighbors as it's influence spreads.

3) This conflict has demonstrated the true value of our Armed Forces and the people who serve in them. We need to continue our support for them and their mission and not pull a "Murtha" on them and cut and run when the going gets tough.

This war will not be won in a McDonald's minute and we need to remember that as we progress.

As for the dumb statement "We can't win militarily.", which is repeated by many these days, usually implying that an outside force can't beat a determined native force, I say take a look at a map. Russia, China, USA, Germany, etc...where all created by one population exerting control over the local population. It happens all the time.