I'm part of that "nutty" Left Karl refers to: a member of the Green Party, an anti-war activist, a guy who's participated in civil disobedience to help hotel workers get a living wage. And yet I agree with Rove on at least one point: too often the voices on the left sound shrill and use histrionics rather than persuasion. Many on my side might benefit from a Toastmasters debate class. I have learned, through years of campaigning, that you can't really push people into doing much of anything. But you can convince them. Passion is what drives a political activist, but reason must guide you or that passionate drive is wasted.

Now, that said, I'd like to mention, since I'm here: DON'T vote for Democrats or Republicans, they're beholden to corporations and won't represent you. Vote Green, live Green. greens don't take corporate money. They're small now, but every day, people like you and me make them bigger.

Oh, and take a break from corporate media while you're at it: killradio.org. Thanks.

The Freepers do tend to tone down the Anglo-Saxonisms, compared to the Kos crew, but there are a fair share of crazies at both sites, as far out on the edge as you can get.

If that's the true America, then no wonder C-Span gets the callers they do.

I agree with the Green adherent above in that Karl Rove did correctly cite the anger is more on the left. Consider---they couldn't get the troops out of Iraq before the elections. They couldn't sell us a wagon-load of Bull-SCHIP. The economy is still on the uptake. Even the poor are living better than ever here. The Dems are strapped for a solid issue.

Worse yet, the leftists got zapped by Dennis Kucinich (D-UFO), who forced the Dems into retreat on impeaching Darth Cheney (R-Undisclosed Location). After all these years of hysterics, the Dems saw Kucinich blow all credibility for impeachment RIGHT out the door.

Lots to be angry about, there. A lot of their pain was self-inflicted, so forgive me but I can't find much sympathy for the Dems.

Rove is smart holding up the "blogosphere" for scrutiny and tying it to Democrats. Dailykos is run as a private business. Follow the money into and around KosMedia LLC. People should know what shenanigans can go on behind closed doors with non disclosure agreements entities not at arms length "Fellowships" etc

One bizarre Poster in particular, "Delaware Dem" called a woman "a cu**, a bi*** a whor*" The individual is a Phladelphia attorney who blogs from work on billable hour time at a large firm. Hardly a A general nuisance, he serves as an online thug to Moulitsas. "Pastor Dan" a Minister of sorts that Moulitsas has along for the money ride chimed in in approval of the slur. He did for a time. Moulitsas then publicly encouraged the aspiring Democratic operative to reregister anonymously and keep it private. He did for a time as "Luciuos Vorenus" Then resumed posting as before as Delaware Dem. If I recall correctly, the attorney from Philadelphia is named Melrath, the one with anger issues with women. Logs and screenshots of these types of abuse are archived and easily available.

Moulitsas also has an astroturf strategy to build a network of allegedly "grassroots" blogs. This Delaware Dem character now operates one known as the Daily Delaware. No one reads most of theses smaller blogs they're mostly chatrooms for the same set of small machine ops and lonely hearts with politics as the backdrop. The idea is to bootstap these up as a self referential media it also allows inflation of ad billings.

Cozen Oconnor has been sued. This firm is the home of Moultsas associate and Kos Media LLC counsel Adam Bonin. The firm is being sued for gender discrimination and wrongful termination According to the lawsuit the firm is used as a hotbed of Democratic Political Activity (Online and otherwise) and created a hostile working environment for a woman, Penn Law grad if I recall correctly.

A number of independent bloggers and former democratic activists are expected to sue Kos Media LLC and his convention promoting firm for harrassment online. Three Individuals, all twentysomething female, are set to sue over certain improprieties relating to ir convention. In both actions a number of his blog administrators are expected to be named personally. Apparently they have email documentation and extensive logs of online harrassment as well as photographic documentation. One complaint was said to be filed before Super Tuesday with a number following in the spring moving to get them certified as a class action on the harrassment at least. The incident at one of their conventions is being handled seperately.One guy with some money has a daughter is so pissed off about her treatment that he's funding alot of the blowback. And he's a democrat....

Karl is right on with this criticism. I have been blogging since 2001 (just before 9/11) and what appealed to me was the possibility of using the web like the Founding Fathers did, as an electronic pamphlet to get my ideas across. What I found was that leftist nutrooters responded almost solely with attacks on my visual appearance instead of arguments of reason and logic.

I had one guy find my work, then on his own website call me every vile name he could think of. Then, he ambled over to my own site and began to try to get me to "debate" with him. I told him that I saw no reason to do so if all he was going to do was call names. He responded as if he'd hit paydirt with, "Ah, so you CAN'T debate me!" I responded back that there was a BIG difference between "can't" and "won't" and I helpfully gave him the Webster's definitions of the two words.

The left all too often now days mistakes vile language for legitimate passion and mere scoffing for argument.

Rove a technology nut? Good to know. Because that means that he must have destroyed all his emails on purpose, and not by accident, right?

Regarding Karl Rove's dislike of liberal vitriolic blogs, no better example exists of angry, vitriolic commentators than conservative Republican Rush Limbaugh; Mr. Limbaugh made argument from anger rather than reason and flat lying de rigeur in Republican speeches. Mr. Limbaugh is also remembered for demanding that all drug abusers be jailed, until Mr. Limbaugh himself was apprehended abusing drugs and in illegal possession. Karl Rove left office under suspicion of a treasonous act, that he revealed the identity of an active CIA operative to the public. It cannot be said that Karl Rove or any Republicans do not compromise. They compromise Constitutional principals at every opportunity.

I often amuse myself imaginging that if these folks ever succeeded what their own lives would become, except that it would ruin mine.
Can you imagine how the people of Iran and Venezuela who managed to demonstrate or actually vote (legal vote too according to Noble winner Carter)their favorite despot into power feel each day with nothing to look foward to but less opportunity and more oppression ?

Kucinich when elected will call down the mother ship and blast Karl Rove and his cronies and crooks.

Vote Kucinich/Ron Paul for VP in 2008!!!

Listen to the voices in your head! The greens want to turn us into soylent green. Why do you think they call it the "green" party?

The way us conservetives are betting you nut jobs is simple. Most of us don't slaughter our childern. We let them be born, we teach them our vaules and increase our way of thinking. For the few that think giving the illegles the right to vote will increase your politicail holdings chew on this. Most are Catholic and we do not believe in abortion. The liberal and democrates are the party of "kill all fetuses". Which way do you think they will swing. I work in the Illegle mexican communutie and preach my heart out to them.Promises of social programs hold no sway over the Popes views. Sorry to give you the bad news

Green Party candidates are beholden to the anti-growth, I got mine but you can't have yours, tree hugging radicals. Neither is that stance best for America.

It's either pumped, harvested, mined or skinned for you to survive. And it's either done by private enterprise or the government. I'm all for keeping anymore of the government out of my life. Let the free market do it's thing. What do you think provided you your current standard of living in the first place? Do what I say, not what I do government office holders?! Reason that!

yes, because karl rove is the epitome of civility in american politics:

Inside, Rove was talking to an aide about some political stratagem in some state that had gone awry and a political operative who had displeased him. I paid it no mind and reviewed a jotted list of questions I hoped to ask. But after a moment, it was like ignoring a tornado flinging parked cars. "We will f*** him. Do you hear me? We will f*** him. We will ruin him. Like no one has ever f***ed him!"As a reporter, you get around --curse words, anger, passionate intensity are not notable events -- but the ferocity, the bellicosity, the violent imputations were, well, shocking. This went on without a break for a minute or two. Then the aide slipped out looking a bit ashen, and Rove, his face ruddy from the exertions of the past few moments, looked at me and smiled a gentle, Clarence-the-Angel smile. "Come on in."

http://www.ronsuskind.com/newsite/articles/archives/000032.html

For those unfamiliar with what Rove is talking about, visit such fine sites as firedoglake.com or pandagon.blogsome.com. Both are quite popular and considered mainstream Netroots.

However, if Rove wants to see regular people, rather than just bloggers, saying stupid things, Youtube is a good place. See the recent comments on this: youtube.com/watch?v=EZL86RtHzAc or most of the comments on this: youtube.com/watch?v=29WTKbpYhag

"The way us conservetives are betting you nut jobs is simple. Most of us don't slaughter our childern. We let them be born, we teach them our vaules and increase our way of thinking. For the few that think giving the illegles the right to vote will increase your politicail holdings chew on this. Most are Catholic and we do not believe in abortion. The liberal and democrates are the party of "kill all fetuses". Which way do you think they will swing. I work in the Illegle mexican communutie and preach my heart out to them.Promises of social programs hold no sway over the Popes views. Sorry to give you the bad news"

Isnt this what Rove would be referring to? But wait its a conservative saying horrible (albeit retarded) things... Wow maybe it goes both ways, there are crazy republicans and crazy democrats.

BTW how old are you Kevin? 30? 40? Yet you write like a retarded person with english as their second language. Must be a product of Americas fine public school system.

Okay, Mygoodness, you apparently beat me to the punch. My thoughts exactly.

We liberals may curse (yeah, we are angry, but we also curse when we're happy ... "Merry F***in' Christmas!" comes to mind.) But at least we know how to spell all of our four-letter words. I'm not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but please! That comment was atrocious. And I didn't know "them conservetives" were "betting us nut jobs", not to mention that last I knew, my "childern" were alive and well, slaughter seemed a bit harsh. I hope I've taught them my "vaules" and have increased their way of thinking (?). I do hope that when Kevin is preaching his heart out to the "Illegle mexican communutie" that he does a better job on his soapbox than he apparently does when it comes to the written word.

That said, Rove is a f**king idiot. See how we liberals are? Always angry and cursing.

And so everybody here, on both sides, went right out and proved ole turd blossom right.

The beauty of the internet is that nobody, myself included, needs to use their real identity to run their mouth. Most internet posters would not talk to a real person - face to face - the way they write online...if for no other reason than the very real possibility that they'd lose a few teeth.

The real point, the terrifying point, is that what you see on the internet are the personalities repressed in everyday life. Granted, we're all repressed...we want to tell somebody off...but its out of control, people. Maybe we've all always hated each other but lacked a means to express it, or maybe we've devolved into a state of post-modern tribalism, i'm not sure.

One thing's for sure, we are a government of, for, and by the people...if you've ever wondered why the government is so messed up and get agree long enough to get anything done, take a long hard look in the mirror.

It just may be that seven years of duplicitous dealings on the part of their government have worked them to a lather, Carl Rove's detachment can only cause a person to wonder if the volume and rederick need be increased. The Republican party remain's (unacountably) both deaf and dumb to the dissatisfaction and disaluhionment of an ever increasing number of Americans who will likely be looking to unseat them in the next round of elections.

One of the pure joys of working on Arianna Huffington's gubernatorial campaign was the opportunity to listen to the debates. There were Peter Camayo and Arianna, two incredibly well-informed and intelligent Progressives, presenting real data and offering real solutions to what many preferred to consider to be intractable problems. And, all the while, in respectful observation of Oxford Rules.

It is possible to attack an opponent's logic without attacking the opponent - all evidence from both the Left and the Right to the contrary. Many of those who write for the blogs are younger than I am (59), and never had the gift of listening to Dick Cavett host guests with opposing views on his show. It can be done. Civility is possible. And, as so many in the posts above have noted, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar .....

Years ago when I was exploring my "right to express myself," the route taken was often paved with profanity. My mother was not happy with my choice of language, and made no bones about her preference for the "Queen's English." It finally occurred to me that expression and communication operate by different rules. If your goal is to express youself - then Rock on Out and use whatever language you wish. But if your goal is to communicate, and perhaps ever persuade, then it's important to consider how the words you choose will make the other person feel.

This is so obvious that it shouldn't need to be said. And, those on the Right that come out swinging do us a favor when they alienate the Center. But we do ourselves no favors when we sound more like Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter than kind and rational people who care about others.

I personally find the far left nutroots web sites extremely frightening. Sites like MoveOn.org and the Daily Kos are disturbing simply because they are now used as the new "AP" (Associated Press) or "UPI" (United Press International) hard news source for all of the mainstream liberal media. The mainstream media now uses these hideous web sites to get actual "facts," without even taking to time to check whether or not any of this information is accurate. A good example of this was the Rush Limbaugh "Phony Soldier" debacle that was started by MoveOn.org. This scurrilous web site started by printing a lie and then it was picked up by every mainstream news organization in the country. Mainstream network news "reporters" then went on to ask a question at a White House press conference as to whether or not there was any truth to this bogus accusation. Then, to show just how dangerous this organization is, Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi, the two leaders in the US Congress, then went on to parrot this accusation without even checking it out to see if it was real or not. Now THAT is power, pure, raw, McCarthy-like power that is being used to destroy people through the Internet. What is truly amazing is that nobody, nobody at all, in the mainstream media even bothered to call Rush Limbaugh and ask him if the story was true. After playing the actual tape of the broadcast in question, it was clear that Limbaugh was in no way referring to active duty soldiers who disagreed with him as "Phony Soldiers." Yet MoveOn.org printed this as "fact" and this story went on to be used as talking point on the floor of the US Congress. If this power from a nutroot left-wing organization doesn't scare people, it should. Fortunately, people like Rush Limbaugh have the resources to fight back against such lies. But what about a small-time Congressman or Congresswoman who doesn't have a daily radio show or millions of dollars to take out print ads denouncing such accusations? How can they fight back? If our politicians can be cowered and frightened into silence by such web sites, this is the worst form of censorship and McCarthyism there is and it's extremely dangerous. Hopefully, one day these web sites will pick on the wrong people and they will be sued for liable. It seems like this will be the only way to prevent them from spreading lies as "facts." We ignore these smearmongers at our own risk.

For folks who seem not to have matured from their tantrums when they are children and then they become "adults" and are smoehow justified in being children again. Get a life.

The best way to make this place a better one, is thru positive construction. Lokk at multitude of people cleaning up rivers etc.

Great post Libertyship46.

It truly is frightening to see what the MoveOn.org, Kos sites can 'move around as gospel'
when wanting to smear Conservatives. It is the "silencing of other voices"(Conservatives) that is their goal-Be it Rush Limbaugh or blog sites that are Conservative. What is even MORE frightening, is that so much of what is hateful and uses smear tactics like MoveOn is quietly being funded by the likes of George Soros. This, is only One of the sites he backs if one has looked into the other, like Media Matters. Is
it scary that Soros, can influence a whole country like ours' with money thrown about as he does? Yes, as he seems so Anti American, and wants to put forth his Socialist agenda for us, but of course would manage to keep his monies off shore, as same as Kennedy, Michael Moore, etc. What is More frightening, is that a woman named Hillary(with Very dubious background and baggage along with her husband) pander to MoveOn,
as they are flooded with $$$ for their own coffers and campaign. Wasn't it once said by the MoveOn people: "We OWN the Democrat Party?"
Yep, frightening, truly frightening to think that Bill/Hillary want to Reign Once Again, and turn the U.S. into her special brand of Socialism, as her mentor, Saul Alinsky taught her. He, the Socialist Radical of her days passed, who taught her to: "Freeze your enemies,
then destroy them". See the late Barbara Olson's
site, if you would like learn what the "Real Hillary is all about". Also, look into:
1984ArkansasMotherOfTheYear.com and,

Google Video: Obstruction of Justice-"The Mena Connection" (as it STILL goes on with the Clintons-moving anything and anybody out of their
path, when it comes to their personal lust for power and money. Do yourself a favor-look into these sites.

There are kooks everywhere. If Karl Rove is using the "F-word" as his only gauge of poster nutiness, he's overlooking quite a bit of Internet lunacy.

The nice thing about the Internet vs. Real Life is that you can identify the real wackos pretty quickly and just skip to the next post when it becomes apparent that the writer is a complete idiot--not because you disagree with the opinion, but because the writer will start spewing out "clever nicknames" or WRITE IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS TO SHOW JUST HOW ANGRY HE IS or indicate a complete lack of maturity and education by calling people names like "rediculous looser"... And so forth.

Whereas, the Real Life kooks--if you're unfortunate enough to be in their vicinity--are a little harder to ignore.

I love it! Even after he is gone, Rove gets the liberals all riled up. Get your underwear out of your cracks and calm down. Foul language and ad hominem attacks do not a persuasive argument make.

Excessive profanity from libs on Blogs? Paul Harvey has the rest of the story. What does Paul say profanity is? Ignorance audibilized, or is that spelled oddibullized?
;-}
Ken

Why is the south pole on Mars melting?
Those darn little green men are driving SUVs.

"Rove a technology nut? Good to know. Because that means that he must have destroyed all his emails on purpose, and not by accident, right?

Posted by lambert strether "

E-mails don't prove anything. An E-mail is just another data file. Like all data files, it can be manipulated. That is what computers do, manipulate data. You just need the appropriate software.
And yes, anyone who doesn't shred his E-mails is a fool. There is software for that also.

To LibertyShip46 and It's Joe:

Your calling liberal websites and blogs "frightening" is hilarious, given the fact that liberals have been saying that about conservative websites and talk show hosts for a decade. What is REALLY SCARY is that people like you think that Rush Limbaugh gives you the TRUTH about anything. Plus, next to Karl Rove, Limbaugh is the king of smear tactics.

The fact that UPI is owned by the same person that owns the Washington Times (favorite newspaper of conservative politicians, going back to Ronald Reagan) should relieve your fears some. The owner of both is the Rev.Sun Myung Moon, founder and leader of the Unification Church (remember the "Moonies"?) and huge contributor to Republicans. NOW THAT'S SCARY.

To Mick Jagger:
Karl is not gone, buddy. He's now in charge of positioning the Republicans for the 2008 elections. That's not scary, just pitiful.

To LibertyShip46 and It's Joe:

According to the transcript on the Rush Limbaugh web site at http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_092607/content/01125113.guest.html, Rush said:

RUSH: It's not possible intellectually to follow these people.

CALLER: No, it's not. And what's really funny is they never talk to real soldiers. They pull these soldiers that come up out of the blue and spout to the media.

RUSH: The phony soldiers.

CALLER: Phony soldiers. If you talk to any real soldier and they're proud to serve, they want to be over in Iraq, they understand their sacrifice and they're willing to sacrifice for the country.

----

Rush dismisses soldiers who oppose the Iraq War as "phony soldiers". Whether Rush meant active duty soldier or veterans are phony seems like an unimportant distinction because they both deserve respect and gratitude -- and not be dismissed as "phony soldiers" simply because they oppose the war.

Hey Carolyn, it's always pathetic to see far left liberals claim that conservatives have such a "lock" on the media, especially when liberals basically run all three television news networks (ABC, CBS, and NBC, which now doesn't even claim to be objective anymore), CNN, MSNBC, CNBC, and just about every newspaper in the country, including The New York Times, The Los Angeles Times, The Washington Post, The Chicago Tribune, and The Boston Globe. A handful of conservative radio talk show hosts and maybe one or two newspapers (like the Washington Times and the Wall Street Journal) have to compete against the rest of the mainstream media and you're complaining? Well cry me a river, dear. Maybe, just maybe, Americans are sick of the slanted and biased news that is being rammed down their throats by the mainstream media and are turning to alternate sources for news and opinions, like talk radio or the Internet. If the liberal television news networks are losing viewers (and they are, big time) and if the liberal newspapers are losing readers (and they are, big time), they have nobody to blame but themselves.

But I do know one thing. I don't see politicians or public figures changing their votes or political views just because Rush Limbaugh said something. I don't see comments made by Rush Limbaugh being parroted by Senators on the floor of the Senate the same day he utters them, unlike what happens when MoveOn.org or Media Matters issues a press release. Even with that disastrous immigration debacle in Congress during this past summer, it was average Americans standing up to the far left that got that bill defeated and those same Americans certainly didn't get any help from the mainstream media. Perhaps liberals at the three major television news networks and at the New York Times or the Washington Post should start listening to Americans rather than trying to indoctrinate them.

As far as getting the truth from Rush Limbaugh is concerned, unlike those blind sheep that only follow the edicts presented by MoveOn.org or Media Matters, I tend to form my opinions based on a number of sources. But I do know that twenty million people listen to Rush Limbaugh every day while the number of people who listened to the bitter bile spewed out by Air America couldn't fill a small living room. So I guess the man is trusted a lot more than the biased bigots that inhabit the darkest corners of liberal mainstream media and the far-left blogs. Try listening to him once in a while. You may just learn something.

"My point is not that liberals swear publicly more often than conservatives. That may be true, but that's not my point," Mr. Rove said. "It is that the netroots often argue from anger rather than reason, and too often, their object is personal release, not political persuasion."

Bull cookies.. that is exactly his point. Liberals curse more than Conservatives on the web because they are angry about their lives, and not the political scene. So any of their arguments don't merit any attention, much less discussion. "Oh my, that blog has cursing in it.. he must be an insane liberal so incensed that he is just ranting and saying nothing." Well we also use big words that many people don't understand, so we are also elitists out of touch with the day to day American (they never curse). So which is it?

Thats the way to listen to those blogs Rove, and don't forget.. Blogs are written by people.. Americans.. they are not just words on a screen. He doesn't bother to listen to what their are saying as a whole message, but instead you pick apart them personally... being the ever present Wedge advisor that you have always been; never uniting, always dividing the country through whisper, cam and then once they are busy with their diversion of the week, back room antics proliferate.

Well that is specious reasoning... but using that line of logic I propose the following...

Children curse less than adults, and only adults can register to vote, and since using curse words is not "accepted political discourse", then based on that logic, children (The Kids Party) are the best choice to lead our governement, followed by Republicans and then followed by the Democrats and so forth.. we all go down a notch.

But the problem then presented... I cannot tell the Republicans from the Kids Party. They are all in the MINE stage of development that at least the Kids tend to outgrow.